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Post by gardnerpag44 on Apr 25, 2015 18:03:40 GMT -7
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 21:34:27 GMT -7
That's a good looking 392 Hemi. two-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon
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Post by gardnerpag44 on Apr 26, 2015 21:49:40 GMT -7
Thank you john2308 really appreciate that
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 22:32:01 GMT -7
Paul, NICE work on the ole Dodge Red Ram 354 "Hemi"..... two-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon
Question tho, how'd you go about the red lettering on the gold valve covers? Looks GREAT!
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Post by gardnerpag44 on Apr 27, 2015 4:18:38 GMT -7
Thank you Hemi appreciate that ...as for the lettering I used a fine tip red marker and a very light touch
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 6:11:51 GMT -7
Just a extra fine point sharpie? ? impatient-smiley-emoticon REALLY? That looks KILLER man!
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Post by CoyoteCrunch on Apr 27, 2015 8:11:07 GMT -7
Beautiful Paul - love this!!
And that's a great idea to just build some engines to display. You gonna make some engine stands? I bet you could do this from all the trees and sprues!
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Post by jbailey on Apr 27, 2015 9:10:37 GMT -7
Paul, NICE work on the ole Dodge Red Ram 354 "Hemi"..... two-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon Question tho, how'd you go about the red lettering on the gold valve covers? Looks GREAT! I thought the 354 was the Chrysler Fire Power engine? I thought the Dodge Red Rams were smaller with a 270, 315, and 325 was the largest? Either way good looking display piece Paul! Do you know which kit this is from?
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Post by Big D on Apr 27, 2015 10:20:19 GMT -7
Good looking engine Paul. I like it and I think an engine display is a great idea.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 16:00:58 GMT -7
Paul, NICE work on the ole Dodge Red Ram 354 "Hemi"..... two-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon Question tho, how'd you go about the red lettering on the gold valve covers? Looks GREAT! I thought the 354 was the Chrysler Fire Power engine? I thought the Dodge Red Rams were smaller with a 270, 315, and 325 was the largest? Either way good looking display piece Paul! Do you know which kit this is from? Jesse, WELL all of the old "Hemi" The Red Ram, FirePower and FireDome, all had the same cubic inch, BUT weren't interchangeable..... The Red Rams went as low C.I.D. "241" all the way to the 370. Dodge NEVER had a 392...... Only Chrysler, and Desoto had the 392's. The Red Ram Hemi's I think the largest ones was the 370. NOT many of those however were made! They also all look slightly different too, the shape of the valve covers I mean, they were odd that way. As you have to remember even tho Chrysler owned them, their respectable locations of designs and manufacturer were done in their own shops back then! Today, or even 30 years ago, was re-organized, to have different "Chrysler" shops making the parts for there respectable companies of Dodge Desoto, and even Plymouth. Plymouth however NEVER had a Hemi in them as they were the Grocery Getters of the day. Wasn't till the late 60's that Plymouth could be bought with a Hemi in it and then it was a 426, EVEN THO you could bolt up a "old" generation one Hemi in place of the Poly-Head engines. BUT the old Hemi's for what they were, was a mean engine of the time and were respected for that due to the the hi revving capabilities they were and still are known for. The model that Paul shows here is either one of I think 2 engines, the 354, or the 370 (they looked the same) BUT were "Red Ram" Hemi's..... BUT if you look at a 354 to a 392 "FirePower" even they too all looked the same on the outside, each one however had a slightly different head contour and could not have parts interchanged between them. Knowing the block numbers or measuring the bore was the only true way to know what C.I.D. the engine was! The weird part is, NOT ONE of them had a common crank, or cam to it either.......... The bearings for the cam or the crank weren't even interchangeable. I said "354" as it was the most common of the old FirePower engines for any of the cars they were used in. That is of course till the 392 came out, as there were more 392's made then ANY of the old Hemi's...... Which is why I made the 354 Hemi comment, as the companies that made the models were and still are known to make the most "made" parts of that time frame as it could be used factory from the box in a few different models. Which also, the old Plymouths you never see ('41 Plymouth coupe comes to mind) doesn't have a Poly, OR a Hemi in it..... Which I question as they could have had ANYTHING put in them! AND they didn't make a Poly-Head engine made for it. Which would have been nice to see (I want to make a Poly-Head, for molding at some point just for something "different"). Crazy, its a well known thing that the old Hemi's tho, were not interchangeable between then, BUT carried the same C.I.D. as the other...... (I'm not sure of the old Mopar straight 6's in that), never looked or had worked on any of those, as most took them out in favor to higher V-8 power no matter what it may have been.
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Post by gardnerpag44 on Apr 27, 2015 16:54:56 GMT -7
Thank you Hemi appreciate that and the lesson on the Red Ram and early Hemi engines a lot of things I did not no about these , very cool info Thanks Thanks CC appreciate that and I have quite a few different engine stands that were part of kits I'll post some of the different one's and what kits they are out of if any one is interested ? Thanks Jesse appreciate that and this is out of the 29 Model " A " Roadster kit 2-n-1 ( early AMT ERTL ) you could build stock or street rod Thanks Big D much appreciated I knew you would like this as you have often said you like engine builds , several more to come so keep a look out as I'll post them here when I get more done
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Post by sharp on Apr 27, 2015 17:14:05 GMT -7
Thats a great looking engine Paul,would look cool in a gasser!
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Post by gardnerpag44 on Apr 27, 2015 17:18:27 GMT -7
Thank you sharp appreciate that , yep it would but I'm just leave it on the engine stand to be displayed with others I have started
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Post by jbailey on Apr 28, 2015 8:43:55 GMT -7
I thought the 354 was the Chrysler Fire Power engine? I thought the Dodge Red Rams were smaller with a 270, 315, and 325 was the largest? Either way good looking display piece Paul! Do you know which kit this is from? Jesse, WELL all of the old "Hemi" The Red Ram, FirePower and FireDome, all had the same cubic inch, BUT weren't interchangeable..... The Red Rams went as low C.I.D. "241" all the way to the 370. Dodge NEVER had a 392...... Only Chrysler, and Desoto had the 392's. The Red Ram Hemi's I think the largest ones was the 370. NOT many of those however were made! They also all look slightly different too, the shape of the valve covers I mean, they were odd that way. As you have to remember even tho Chrysler owned them, their respectable locations of designs and manufacturer were done in their own shops back then! Today, or even 30 years ago, was re-organized, to have different "Chrysler" shops making the parts for there respectable companies of Dodge Desoto, and even Plymouth. Plymouth however NEVER had a Hemi in them as they were the Grocery Getters of the day. Wasn't till the late 60's that Plymouth could be bought with a Hemi in it and then it was a 426, EVEN THO you could bolt up a "old" generation one Hemi in place of the Poly-Head engines. BUT the old Hemi's for what they were, was a mean engine of the time and were respected for that due to the the hi revving capabilities they were and still are known for. The model that Paul shows here is either one of I think 2 engines, the 354, or the 370 (they looked the same) BUT were "Red Ram" Hemi's..... BUT if you look at a 354 to a 392 "FirePower" even they too all looked the same on the outside, each one however had a slightly different head contour and could not have parts interchanged between them. Knowing the block numbers or measuring the bore was the only true way to know what C.I.D. the engine was! The weird part is, NOT ONE of them had a common crank, or cam to it either.......... The bearings for the cam or the crank weren't even interchangeable. I said "354" as it was the most common of the old FirePower engines for any of the cars they were used in. That is of course till the 392 came out, as there were more 392's made then ANY of the old Hemi's...... Which is why I made the 354 Hemi comment, as the companies that made the models were and still are known to make the most "made" parts of that time frame as it could be used factory from the box in a few different models. Which also, the old Plymouths you never see ('41 Plymouth coupe comes to mind) doesn't have a Poly, OR a Hemi in it..... Which I question as they could have had ANYTHING put in them! AND they didn't make a Poly-Head engine made for it. Which would have been nice to see (I want to make a Poly-Head, for molding at some point just for something "different"). Crazy, its a well known thing that the old Hemi's tho, were not interchangeable between then, BUT carried the same C.I.D. as the other...... (I'm not sure of the old Mopar straight 6's in that), never looked or had worked on any of those, as most took them out in favor to higher V-8 power no matter what it may have been. Not to prove you wrong John, but I didn't think some of this made sense so I did some research. Dodge never went over 325ci the HEMI and it was only available in 1957 and Desoto never went over a 345ci. www.hothemiheads.com/hemi_info/hemi_engine_id.htmlAnd how can they all have the same cubic inch displacement when they're all different cubic inches? The cranks from the short deck HEMIs interchange as long as they are the same brand, for instance you can put a dodge 241 crank in a dodge 270. The high deck 315 and 325 are also the same stroke different bore. And on the Chrysler HEMIs, the 331 and 354 are the same except bore and the 392 was a high deck block with different heads all together. But it's funny since back then they were all still separate companies that no parts interchange between the 3 makers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 11:40:44 GMT -7
Oh oh. John might have to change his name from Hemi to SortOfHemi. I see an even longer explanation in our future.....
poke
popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon
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Post by jbailey on Apr 28, 2015 11:54:19 GMT -7
Oh oh. John might have to change his name from Hemi to SortOfHemi. I see an even longer explanation in our future..... poke popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon Lmao, you crack me up Joel!
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Post by Big D on Apr 28, 2015 12:01:45 GMT -7
Hey Paul, I bet you didn't think you would get this much action out of one engine did 'ya!!
I like the detail on the bolt heads too!
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Post by CoyoteCrunch on Apr 28, 2015 12:11:32 GMT -7
Oh oh. John might have to change his name from Hemi to SortOfHemi. I see an even longer explanation in our future..... poke popcorn-and-drink-smiley-emoticon Lmao, you crack me up Joel!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:19:26 GMT -7
Jesse, ohhh no.. the Mopar "325" was a Poly-Head, that had offered a accessory Hemi bolt on with needed modifications. See:
That SAME engine could have Hemi heads bolted on, but was NEVER offered "stock" that way! ALL and I do mean ALL of the Poly-Head engines had the ability to have Hemi heads bolt on, but needed the valve push rod clearances to work. BUT wasn't "built" by Chrysler that way......
Then you had the 331 "Red Ram" it WAS a "Hemi" See:
Notice in the pictures from Allpar.com, they list the date and time frame as well as the Chrysler given name, this ALSO signifies that not ALL the "Red Rams" were in fact Hemi's...... Was just an engine name. This however made it difficult to understand and know the difference between the Dodge engines of the time period!
NOT to disagree with ANYTHING that Hot Heads say, BUT they do ONLY give the engines "name" NOT the head type! Allpar, is the one that can signify what engine type is what!
Now to really make it difficult.....
Mopar, Er well "Chrysler" used A LOT of the same engine displacement on multiple engine types!
This one----^
Dodge "Red Ram"..... a "331" C.I.D. engine! The Dodge "Red Ram Hemi, has no "cast in" transmission bell housing..........
This one---^
A Chrysler "FirePower"... ALSO a "331" C.I.D. engine! The Chrysler "FirePower" Hemi, has a cast-on transmission bell housing!
BOTH these 2 engines, are the same C.I.D. from the SAME company of Chrysler, or well what we know of them anyway, BUT made 2 completely different ways!
Easiest one, (first one that comes to mind is the 426...... this engine was BOTH a Wedge-Head engine, AND became the Hemi-Head we all know and love. specially us Mopar guys..... The 426 Wedge could have been had with any number of cars and even trucks with single or twin carburetors! Wasn't till '64 that it become the Hemi legend..
THEN on top of that all. you had the Mopar 354, this was also a Poly-Head BUT became a factory offered 354 Hemi! This, however becomes differences to the car it went in, some had only the Poly-Head version, while others had the Hemi-Head version. The Poly-Head engines were noted to be used strictly in Plymouth cars. The Hemi-Head version could be seen in Chryslers, and Desotos.....
THEN, you have the 318. this is more noted the 318 we all know and have MILLIONS of floating around, the 318 "LA" this engine was a "later" model of the 318, the actual "318" came to us WAY before this motor did, it was a Poly-Headed engine too......... The more common Poly-Headed engine.....
NOTICE this 318 Poly-Head is said to be also a "Red Ram"....
Dodge was known for the name "Red Ram" so much that they took the Mopar big block "B" motor the 350 AND the 361 to be called a "Super-Red Ram"!!!! These 2 engine types were the same as the more noted "383" as most have no idea but that engine, the 383 was also in 2 different engine categories! BOTH big blocks, one was a B motor and the other was an RB motor.... The "RB" motor, is the famous Mopar Big Blocks we all know and love more noted to the 440, BUT they, were in fact the same engine just with a higher deck height.....
VERY confusing......Specially when only "names" of the engines are given, AKA "Red Ram", "FireDome" FirePower" etc. BUT this is what made Chrysler difficult to understand AND I admit, I myself don't understand it all, BUT have a damn good idea on a lot of it.....
Also to make it known the pictures that I used here, are from www.allpar.com ,AND they get/got them from the Walter P. Chrysler Museum! -So, aren't someone elses, "take", its factual! Then to answer your question in the end of your original posting, you have to keep in mind, the way the engines blocks were cast back then, and WHERE, this is why they were NOT interchangeable! The Chrysler FirePower, you could NOT interchange say the 331 crank with the 354 OR the 370 OR the 392, WHY? WELL the crank is different! Heres how..... They will "fit" into the block to the cast in bearing area and look to work, BUT its not that that keeps it from working, its the flywheel end of the crank thats different! Between ALL of them, if you look at say a 331 and compare it to any of the others, the bell housing to where the transmission bolts on is in fact different some are small on some, others are large, and this requires different flywheels, that are simply bigger then the bell housing can handle to have a standard starter placed and WORK, in some cases, (I THINK) the 354, and the 392, the flywheel on the 392 is smaller, BUT the spines are different, and in the 354, the flywheel is HUGE and have a finer tooth count on it to be used with its stock starter! CRAZY crap it is! Now, granted, they do physically look and measure out the same length IN THE BLOCK, once the flywheel end passes through the bell housing for the transmission, thats where it all goes down the toilet! LOL This doesn't allow them to be interchangeable..... As you can't fit the parts as they were cast bolt on from the factory, as the bolting holes are differently spaced...... This tends to lead into issues, VERY EXPENSIVE issues as there once was a LOT of these engines floating around for pennies on the dollar, and there really still are, BUT these days, your gonna pay for them, let me tell you...... NOW to further this, the bore yes is different from all of them! There really isn't a "standard" stroke in ANY of the old Hemi's, a "standard" stroke didn't come along till much later.... The Mopar "A" engines is where a sort-of "standard" came along with the making of the Poly-Head engines..... NOW for the making or well manufacturing of these engines, you have to remember, Chrysler OWNED or well governed these companies then, Dodge, Desoto, Plymouth. WELL in that EACH one had there own machine shop for making the parts that went into the cars they made, BEFORE computers! SO really all they EVER got as a standard was cubic in size, bore & stroke, they didn't have a "standard" between them for transmission, starter rotating assembly or ANYTHING, they used what that "company" had in place already...... Wasn't till better technology took place with the manufacturing world that some sort of "standard" manufacturing came to be. Meaning, they got general "size" of things and used what they already had to make whatever work...... Just like the 426 Hemi, and say the 392 Hemi.. they're completely different even in looks! The 392, has the distributor in the rear to the right side of the block, the 426 Hemi has the distributor in the front, on the left side of the block, on an angle..... meaning the old Hemi used the same set up as the rest of the engines in the same time frame, as the 426 Hemi used the same distributor that the Mopar RB blocks used, to utilize existing parts, Hence the RB big blocks and EVEN the B block engines..... Meaning the 426 Hemi itself, was based off a RB block! Only different outwardly in looks is that it has side bolts through the engines crank skirting to cross-bolt the crank bearing, the "standard RB engines do not have these! ALSO the block to the RB Hemi is thicker walled casting, making it a HEAVY engine block, when bare, nothing in, or on it, it weighs about 300 pounds MORE then a RB 426 Wedge, which it was based off of! See the 426 Hemi was merely a accessory to the Wedge motor. They wanted to use what they already had, and at the time the 426 was just that, was the BEST they had for a Wedge motor and it was some powerful BUT wasn't enough, the big wigs at Chrysler wanted there engine designers to make a legend, so they used what they already had done, and added to it to make it better. BUT they found that the 426 Wedge couldn't handle the revving of the 426 Hemi when the bolt on's were added to that basic block, they worked day and night to create the 426 Hemi for the Daytona 500 on February 23rd 1964. Difference was, the cylinder walls of the wedge 426, were "standard" to the block, and the pressure and all that the Hemi heads created put serious stress on the cylinder walls, hence they rubbed sand out of the sand molds for the block to add "thickness" along the entire side of the block, doing this, thickened and strengthened the block, Making it slightly different then the Wedge RB motors..... Adding a bit of weight too!!! BUT this was all done in a time where they didn't have internet, communication, MOST if not ALL was either done by phone (SERIOUSLY lacking back then) OR mailed letters..... with different information to each, BUT because the "shop" that machined the parts were set up to use what they already had made, and then just change things within that part to fit the "new" machine work..... This cut cost, but made/used left parts and already made technology of the era..... Now again to further this, you have to remember also there were HUGE "options", and ALL offered, you could take a Dodge and have 3 to 6 "standard" engines that could be had with there cars and trucks, BUT you had options to have that same car or truck ordered with ANY of the listed in-production engines! THIS trait is what made Chrysler, well Chrysler..... GM and Ford, you got an option of what they offered for engines and thats it, they didn't "offer" a choice of ALL the engines they built to be fitted into their cars, in some ways this was GREAT in other ways this was a PITA, as it then just follows the line of "custom"..... BUT, respectively, you could get odd engines in things not regularly done. They stopped this in the mid 60's.... As it got costly to do and offer that to the general public! And no.... I BET Paul didn't think it get this deep, I'm gonna need hip waders here in a bit....... -I'll ALSO add here in the end, NOT to confuse the Hemi, with the Pent-Roof, AND the "Semi-Hemi"...... They ALL were VERY different engine types! The Poly-Head was known as the "Semi-Hemi"..... The 426 Dual Over-head Cam Was called a "Hemi" but isn't 100% true, its a Pent-Roof, BUT, it HAD quarter hemisphere sides in the head..... Round like a ball, sort of oblong side to side, BUT front to back it was "Pent-Roof" style. The "NEW" Hemi's, are oblong too just from front to back of the cylinder, meaning the 426 DOHC engine was oblong combustion chamber, side-to-side. The "NEW" Hemi's are the other way, front of cylinder (intake valve area) to the back of the cylinder, (exhaust valve area).......VERY difficult to explain!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:37:24 GMT -7
-Guys I have no idea WHY the damned font is "lighting" up like a link in blue................ I just tried to see if I had left a HTML code open and it was causing it and nothing so, pay no never mind to that, I can't figure it out! I just tried to "fix" it 3 times! DAMN computers......
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Post by jbailey on Apr 28, 2015 18:32:59 GMT -7
Straight from the bottom of the allpar website page... We make no guarantees regarding validity, accuracy, or applicability of information, predictions, or advice. www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/oldhemi.htmlI don't count truck engines, they always had bigger displacements then cars. Ford used Lincoln Y blocks in the mid-late fifties in their big trucks. I'm done cluttering up your thread now Paul, I apologize for derailing it so much!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 19:49:07 GMT -7
zzzzz zzzzzz I'm not sure anyone is a winner in this discussion. dramatic-death
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Post by CoyoteCrunch on Apr 29, 2015 7:00:25 GMT -7
zzzzz zzzzzz I'm not sure anyone is a winner in this discussion. dramatic-death I don't think I will EVER change my own oil again now..............
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